Sunday, August 30, 2009

Three Friends and a Discussion Regarding Abortion

]Written in response to a Jewish-Christian friend's response to A Peek into Fetal Memory: Learning in Utero by Prison Fellowship president Mark Earley

Introduction to a Discussion Regarding Abortion

A couple of things...

I did a little fact-checking on A Peek into Fetal Memory: Learning in Utero by Prison Fellowship president Mark Earley and found the following:

In the Womb: Twins, Triplets and Quads (TV capture)

Discovery Of Fetal Short-Term Memory In 30-Week-Old Fetuses

My computer (and dial-up connection) doesn't give me the umph! to download media but, based on the description given, I see no reason to doubt the interpretation given in the quoted note.

So I'm prepared to accept the following facts: that multiple birth siblings respond to each other in the womb at some indeterminate time before birth (if I could download the video, I no doubt would know that time) and that short term memory has been shown to exist at about 30 weeks (a little under 7 months).

Second, I'm inclined to accept that a sperm cell in a man and an egg in a woman constitutes a potential human being. A baby constitutes an actual human being. There is a long process between the one and the other and, while science can give us certain facts, the decision itself as to when a fetus becomes a baby is not one that can be made by scientists (at least, not while remaining in their role as scientists).

It is a spiritual decision and moral decision, on the one hand and, within the context of a civil society, a political and legal decision on the other.

Spiritual and Moral Considerations Regarding Abortion

The spiritual and moral aspects puts us in peril at the get-go.

One good friend of mine is a Christian heavily influenced by the Jewish tradition who sees God's revelation in the Torah and in the Talmudic interpretations of the Torah given by Rabbis, particularly those in biblical times and in the early centuries of the Common Era.

I am a liberal Christian in a Unitarian Universalist church who is convinced of the spiritual authority of the Hebrew Scriptures (the so-called Old Testament), the Christian Scriptures (the New Testament) and the broad, mainstream tradition of the Christian tradition (which I take as being the Roman Catholic, the Eastern Orthodox, the Anglican and the various mainstream Protestant denominations).

Another friend of mine (who does not know the first friend) is a committed atheist. He takes his moral compass from science and secular humanism.

Yet, we are all Americans and we are all joined by bonds of friendship and common nationality.

My Jewish-Christian (if I may call him that) friend seems to believe a potential person becomes an actual person sometime between conception and birth. And I would agree with that (though not on exactly the same grounds). And he also believes that a potential person, while not an actual person, is still something more than a tumor or a cyst – and I would agree with that as well.

My atheist friend would consider the potential person as becoming an actual person at viability outside the womb. I think that's unreasonably late – an entity that can experience pain, retain memories and (therefore) begin the development of a personality can certainly lay claim to actual personhood even if it hasn't undergone the “formality” of birth.

It is worth noting that the views of at least two of us (the Jewish-Christian and the Unitarian Universalist Christian (jeez, don't we have anyone non-heretical here? :-) are explicitly informed by “private” sources of “knowledge” (i.e. revelation). Arguably, my atheist friend's judgments in this matter are also informed by private sources of knowledge in that science can not make value judgments and it's hard to see how humanistic values can help in this case where the very question under consideration is when does a fertilized egg become a human.

It's also worth pointing out that the three of us are guys and that only one of us (the Jewish Christian) has actually helped birth and raise children – he knows the process better than we do, but he certainly doesn't know it like his wife knows it (especially the birth part)!

The Intersection of Private Spirituality / Morality and Politics / Law in America

As we move from the spiritual / moral issues to the political / legal issues I should point out a “quirk” in my own Unitarian Universalist Christian views.

Following the late William Stringfellow (a biblically conservative socially progressive Episcopalian) it seems incongruous if not arrogant to identify any human moral or political decisions with the will of God. It is one thing to pray to do the will of God and quite another to claim to know the will of God.

God may be infallible – we are not. And that fallibility, in my opinion, extends to those circumstances where we presume to speak of God's ultimate judgment regarding a person or decision.

I am reminded of the story of Abraham Lincoln, early in the Civil War when his goal was to reunite the country, not free the slaves. Two Quaker women approached him and said that God had revealed to them that God wanted slavery abolished. Lincoln gently replied that as he was President of the United States and as only he could actually free the slaves with a stroke of a pen (as he eventually did, at least nominally, in the Emancipation Proclamation) it was odd that God would have revealed this to them without revealing it to him.

Point taken.

A hundred plus years later civilized nations accept the principle that people should not be treated as property.

And it is quite possible that a hundred years from now civilized nations will have a shared view on abortion more pleasing to God than either “abortion on demand no matter the circumstances” or “no abortions ever, let the mother die.”

But so long as we remain embedded in history rather than living in God's New Jerusalem, all our ethical decisions are human decisions informed by our “private” beliefs and not divine decisions. So we all struggle along as best we can hopefully mindful that God (or, for my atheist friend, conscience and history) will ultimately judge our subjective, frail, human decisions.

This is the motivation, I believe, behind the First Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. (See Text )

Speaking from a religious point of view, I believe this amendment specifies that the government cannot claim to speak in God's name and – more to the point – cannot side with any one group of people based on their claim to speak in God's name. It also allows people of various religious / secular beliefs to freely exercise those beliefs in the public marketplace and the political arena.

These two aspects have, at times collided with each other. (See Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment )

Political and Legal Aspects of Abortion

Where does this leave my Jewish-Christian friend, my secular humanist friend and my own Unitarian Universalist Christian self? (And, for that matter, our strict Pro-Life brethren, but I'll allow them to make their own case :-)

If we are Americans and if we are committed to the First Amendment, I suppose we fall back on 'I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

That sounds nice in principle but are we prepared to accept it when the (alleged) killing of babies is involved?

The Constitution was developed such that laws that were passed (as well as the interpretation and enforcement of those laws) reflects the victors in a succession of conflicts between competing interests – with the provision that the Bill of Rights protects certain rights of the losers in such conflicts and that this Bill of Rights cannot be changed without an overwhelming change-of-heart in the United States (as happened with the abolition of slavery, when slave holders were denied their right to “property” in favor of the Black Americans' right to be treated as people, not as property).

So we come down to two decisions that (to the extent we take the Constitution seriously) we need to make as a society:

  1. When does a potential person under the law become a person under the law. At conception? At the first trimester? At the second trimester. The third trimester? After birth?

  2. Who is authorized to decide the fate of the potential person on the one hand, and the actual person on the other? The mother? The father? The government? The religious establishment? How do we adjudicate the claims between a mother and a father or between a mother and the third trimester fetus that may have no prospective viability outside of the womb. Or that has prospective viability but might kill the mother?

I'd love to be able to say that God has revealed to me what God thinks about all this, but I can't. All I can say is that I believe that a fetus is a potential though not an actual person until such time as its nervous system has sufficiently developed to have feelings and to retain those feelings in memory, beginning the process of having a personal identity and history.

Science can probably give us the best answer on when that occurs but I'm sure that answer will also be tentative as that probably differs from one fetus to another.

Almost certainly during this time I believe the mother should be the decision-maker regarding whether to bring the fetus to term or not.

As I believe a fetus, all the way back to a simple, fertilized egg, in its status as a potential person, is still something of great worth, a decision to terminate a pregnancy should be made with great care and all possible advice from the mother's partner, her family, her religious or other institutions from which she draws moral guidance, and her doctors.

But I still believe it should be her decision.

At such point as society determines that the potential person has become an actual person, then I believe the interests of that actual person (as difficult to determine as that might be) should be taken into account by the government along with the interests of the mother and her husband (and possibly also her partner, even if they aren't married).

That point at which society determines when the potential person has become an actual person will no doubt be arbitrary. That is how the law works.

For example, someone is considered an “adult” in Pennsylvania regarding the consumption of alcohol on their twenty-first birthday. Had I been in Pennsylvania and had an alcoholic drink at 11:59 PM on February 4th, 1975 I would have been in violation of the law. If I had an alcoholic drink at 12:01 AM on February 5th, 1975 I would not have been in violation of the law – which is interesting because although I wasn't actually born until 3:02 PM in the afternoon, the law defines my adulthood by my birth date not my birth time.

Again, how these decisions are made (regarding when a potential person becomes a person under the law, what responsibilities society holds towards potential persons, how the interests of a fetus defined as a legal person should be considered) are, in America, through the political process under the US Constitution.

And as Americans, we are constrained to accept those judgments if we can and to work to change those judgments under the lawful processes provided by the constitution if we can't.

The Bonhoeffer Situation

What if we believe we cannot ethically accept those judgments and we do not believe the lawful process of changing those processes suffice?

What if we feel compelled to define ourselves outside of the American constitution and resort to violence to enforce our beliefs on others?

Well, to begin with, I suppose it bears mention that at the point we act on those beliefs we become traitors to our country and, in essence, go to war against it.

That is not necessarily immoral. Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a traitor to Germany and the Nazi regime. Despite being a pacifist who initially used non-violent resistance to the regime he ultimately, through an accident of family history, became in the bomb plot. He was caught and executed days before his concentration camp was liberated by the allies.

Did Bonhoeffer do the right thing in ultimately embracing violence? I don't know. Only God knows.

Perhaps, at this time, it might make sense for the Catholics amongst us (if no others) to re-consider the Roman Catholic Just War Doctrine.

Just War Doctrine

The Just War Doctrine, as contained n paragraph 2309 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

* the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

* all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

* there must be serious prospects of success;

* the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine. The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

I'll give some brief Unitarian Universalist thoughts on this :-)

First, a decision to engage in violence must meet “rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy.” The decision to engage in violence against one's fellow citizens is no trivial decision for anyone who claims to respect authoritative teaching.

Second, the damage inflicted by the aggressor need to be “lasting, grave and certain”. The twist here is that as abortion is legal in the United States, the claim would have to be that the nation is the aggressor. That is, the aggressor is the United States of America and the Constitution which is the foundation of a legal system permitting abortion.

For argument's sake, let's say this holds. Certainly, if one accepts the decision (informed, again, by private knowledge or revelation not available to the non-Catholic rest of us) that an entity that should be recognized by society as a legal person comes into existence at the moment a woman's egg is fertilized by a man's sperm, then abortion would certainly constitute a holocaust. How could one not believe that the legalized, unmitigated slaughter of infants would not cause damage to a nation that would be “lasting, grave and certain.”

I would only ask that my Catholic friends remember that we're not all Catholic and many of us (including many of us who are Catholic) really do not find it obvious or self-evident that this is the case.

Third, violence must be the last resort.

Can anyone seriously believe this is the case in America? There are all the freedoms enumerated in the First Amendment – to speak, to print, to assemble and organize, etc. We have a representative government. Votes and political financial contributions (for better or worse :-) effect elections and elections affect policy and policy affects laws.

Fourth, there are serious prospects for success.

I suppose that is arguable. Dr. Tiller's murder closed a clinic.

But that's winning a battle, not a war.

Those organizations committed to ending or limiting abortion seem to believe such violence ultimately immoral and counter-productive to the Pro-Life cause. (See All Statements from Pro Life Groups Condemning Tiller Murder).

I suppose one could take the conspiratorial approach and say that such statements are merely political in nature and that secretly these organizations believe that violence is the way to go.

But is that reasonable? Especially considering the Just War Doctrine's insistence that a decision to engage in violence meet “rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy.”

Can one seriously defend the idea that all of these pro-life organizations secretly believe that violence against abortion providers and the federal and state laws that allow their work will bring victory?

I doubt it.

Fifth, the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated.

Again, can an argument be made that such “evils and disorders” will not result?

Tough question. If extra-legal violence ends a holocaust at the expense of ending America's constitutional “experiment” in representative government, could that not reasonably cause “evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated”?

I'll let my pro-life Catholic friends tackle that one :-)

Lastly, let's consider that The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.”

Who, in America, has “the responsibility for the common good”?

Well, if one takes the Constitution seriously, we all do – collectively.

If one believes that the government that currently exists is representative of the people of America and legitimate, then what that government does reflects our corporate decision as to what constitutes the common good – even if we may disagree with this individual decision or that individual institution (as we all most certainly do).

Tentative Conclusion

I personally believe that a fetus is a potential person but not an actual person. As a potential person it is not something that should be treated as a tumor or a wart, but it is not entitled to full legal protection as a person either.

I believe it is a good thing for society to counsel sexual abstinence until such time as a person (hopefully a couple!) have the ability to assume the responsibility of an infant and, for those for whom the spirit is willing (or not, as the case may be) but the flesh weak, contraception.

At some point in the womb I believe that potential person becomes an actual person and should be recognized as such by law and should be considered a stakeholder in a decision to abort. That, to me, does not imply that no abortions would be performed after that time as, doing a bit of research after Dr. Tiller's murder, I am convinced that there are some really difficult situations women and their families encounter that may, indeed, justify abortion of a third trimester infant – just as we justify the execution of a murderer, the death of innocents (including innocent children) in a war or the withholding of a donor organ to one dying person to give it to another dying person with a better chance of recovery.

This legal decision-making will no doubt be messy and arbitrary but no less arbitrary than saying it's an actual person at the moment of conception or it's not an actual person until it is viable outside of the womb. (I'm 55 and I'm not fully convinced I'm viable outside of the womb. :-)

And, in the final analysis, whether or not society addresses each and every one of these issues the way I believe they should be addressed, I believe that the American constitutional system is largely (if not completely) representative and legitimate and that force is not justified (at least, to those who grant credence to centuries of Christian Just War thinking) to change the system when there are so many legal or illegal but non-violent options for those who seek a change.


Bill Bekkenhuis
Bethlehem, PA

Notes...

08/31/09 - Regarding John Dunkle's belief that there is no distinction between a potential person and an actual person, see the (pro-life) article at Cloning, Aquinas, and the Embryonic Person.

It includes this quote: The Catholic defenders of this "delayed hominization" of the embryo correctly say that St. Thomas Aquinas held (a) that there is no human person until ensoulment with a spiritual intellectual soul; and (b) there can be no ensoulment until there is a body proportionate to such a soul.

While the article says Aquinas' position is being misused in the debate regarding abortion / stem cell research, it does maintain that it was his position. If Aquinas can distinguish between a potential person and an actual one, so can I.

23 comments:

John Dunkle said...

I got as far as paragraph #5, "Second," and spotted your first mistake: making "constitutes" singular. An egg and a cell are two different things. You should have written "constitute." When they come together, when the two become one, there you are. Forget scientists, just use common sense: normally, someone is alive for nine months before she's born. Once you deny this or obscure it, you really can say anything. So I didn't bother reading past that.

Bill Bekkenhuis said...

Okay, I made a grammatical error.

Please correct "Second, I'm inclined to accept that a sperm cell in a man and an egg in a woman constitutes a potential human being. A baby constitutes an actual human being." to read "Second, I'm inclined to accept that a sperm cell in a man and an egg in a woman constitute a potential human being. A baby constitutes an actual human being."

Point to you.

Second, in your obvious haste to rationalize not reading this, you neglected to notice that the sperm cell exits in the man and the egg in the woman before conception and thus really are two separate entities that constitute a potential human being.

Point to me.

Third, you can't count. There is no way that the paragraph beginning "second" can be considered "paragraph #5".

Am I justified in dismissing Pro-Life arguments because you can't count? :-)

Point (and Game) to Bill

Now are you going to get serious or are we just wasting each other's time?

Bill

Bill Bekkenhuis said...

So long as we're playing "Silly Buggers" rather than dealing with substantive points, I officially correct "exits" in the fourth paragraph of my response to read "exists".

And, John, it really IS in the fourth paragraph :-)

Bill

John Dunkle said...

Bill, I don't understand what you're saying. Tomorrow, I will read after the paragraph that begins "Second," and see what I can come up with.

John Dunkle said...

It wasn't really a grammar error I was correcting, Bill; rather it was a thinking error. And the error continues with the word "potential." You use potential the same way other kayhaitchers used nigger and Jew. You use it as a way to avoid facing the fact that the people you are helping to kill at the AWC are real people, not potential people, not three fifth of a person, not some sub-human species.
Even the count should give you a clue: how could the millions of cells in your body not have been at one time tens of thousands, and thousands, and hundreds, and tens, and one?
This fundamental error leads to many other errors. For example, characterizing us as people who say "no abortions ever, let the mother die," (para 19)is wrong. We say, let a real doctor decide, not a baby-killer. Paragraph 27 -- slavery in the USA did not end because of an "overwhelming change of heart" but because of the Civil War. Paragrph 29 -- your definition of when someone becomes a person is so broad and vague that even a three-year-old might not qualify.

Bill Bekkenhuis said...

I can see one thing if we're going to communicate - I need to write shorter articles or put numbering on my paragraphs :-)

I've added a note to my article that links to a Catholic article arguing against abortion and stem cell research but does grant that Aquinas distinguished between potential and actual human life.

If Aquinas can make that distinction, who am I to disagree? :-)

As far as letting a "real" doctor decide when an abortion is appropriate treatment, I'm not sure what you mean by a "real" doctor. The doctors at the AWC are apparently not real doctors because they perform abortions. But if one of your "real" doctors performs an abortion, then they are abortion doctors as well.

What differentiates, to you, "real" doctors from the doctors at the AWC?

As far as when a fetus becomes an infant, I don't believe I had a position beyond the suggestion that society needs to make a decision in that regard.

I also expressed skepticism regarding a belief that a life isn't a human life until it is viable outside of the womb.

It seems more reasonable to me that a fetus that has feelings and retains memories is a separate person from the mother.

Bill

John Dunkle said...

First I'll comment on your immediate comment; then I'll finish responding to the essay.
Aquinas is not the Church. The Church makes one distinction between fetal life and, say, teenage life: anyone involved in the killing of a fetus, but not a teenager, is automatically excommunicated.
A real doctor may make the life/death decision in extreme circumstances. Suppose he arrives at the scene of a car accident and both mother and daughter are bleeding to death. He has enough plasma with to save one. He has to decide which one. A real doctor would never deliberately kill someone.
Now for you essay. I'm up to about paragraph 33, "At such point..." You seem to be saying here that a person should not have autonomy over whether she lives or dies, that her mother and others should have a say in this. Is that what you're saying? In addition, suppose society determined, as it did till I turned 33, that the potential person, the egg and the cell, becomes a real person as soon as the egg and cell unite. Would you go along with that?

Then you say that today the point at which potential becomes actual is arbitrary. But it's not. The point is birth. And if the fetus is killed just before she is pulled from the birth canal, she never achieves person hood.

You passage on the Bonhoeffer is quite fair. An ideologue would never have mentioned that. That's why you're my guy, Bill.

Jump down now to around paragraph 42 -- violence must be the last resort. If you follow the career of Jim Kopp, you'll see that it is the last resort.

Now 47 or so. You're getting a little too excited here, Bill -- "ending America's constitutional experiment in representative government..." Do you know how baby killing became legal? The killers broke the law again, and again, and again. At first the government could easily have stopped them, but it let them slide. Then it became harder. Then, in 1973, it caved in. That's the way the killers changed the law. And I believe that's the only way the present law will be reversed. Sometimes I come close to changing my mind, but if you couldn't do it with this very well-written essay, I doubt I'll change.

John Dunkle said...

Did that recent article observing that fetal life is far more active, sensitive, and perceptive than had been previously thought (science catching up with religion) influence you here Bill. But that observation is not new:“The history of man for the nine months preceding his birth would, probably, be far more interesting and contain events of greater moment than for all the three score and ten years that follow it,” wrote Coleridge.

Bill Bekkenhuis said...

“Aquinas is not the Church.”
Agreed. But when the Church makes a decision on something, guess who they read – Aquinas (as well as others). They don't read me, that's for damn sure :-)
The point of the Aquinas reference is, right or wrong, Church teaching or not, if Aquinas can err in distinguishing between potential human life and actual human life, so can I. It is, apparently, not so self-obvious an error as you suggested.

“A real doctor may make the life/death decision in extreme circumstances.”
Your hypothetical certainly does not constitute an abortion. So, again, your position is that abortion is always wrong including cases where the mother's life is at risk. Or are you saying there are situations where a “real” doctor is justified in aborting a fetus?

“In addition, suppose society determined, as it did till I turned 33, that the potential person, the egg and the cell, becomes a real person as soon as the egg and cell unite. Would you go along with that?”
By my own reasoning, I would have to. If I disagreed with it I would work within the law to change the law. If I felt it rose to an occasion where non-violent civil disobedience was required, I would do that. I would not resort to violence because, again, this society simply has too many non-violent alternatives to changing the laws.

“Then you say that today the point at which potential becomes actual is arbitrary. But it's not. The point is birth. And if the fetus is killed just before she is pulled from the birth canal, she never achieves person hood.”
I don't understand your point. I'm saying there is a smooth transition between a fertilized egg and a baby. Wherever one draws the line, it's going to be arbitrary – in the same way that it is arbitrary that someone on the 18th birthday can vote in national and state elections and that someone one day short of their 18th birthday cannot. After all, what “miraculous” thing is going to happen in the next 24 hours other than a legal (and arbitrary) change in status. The law could have said one can vote at 12 or at 21 or at 45. It picked the “arbitrary” age of 18 and so that's when one is an adult regarding the right to vote.

“You passage on the Bonhoeffer is quite fair. An ideologue would never have mentioned that. That's why you're my guy, Bill.”
Thank you. I am not a pacifist. I merely believe an extraordinary threshold of threat to civil society or the unjust treatment of its members must be met (along the lines of the Catholic Church's Just War doctrine) before the violent path is chosen. And even then, I wouldn't dream of passing my engagement in such as “God's will”. It would be my mortal and fallible moral decision no matter how carefully considered.

Bill Bekkenhuis said...

“Do you know how baby killing became legal? The killers broke the law again, and again, and again. At first the government could easily have stopped them, but it let them slide. That's the way the killers changed the law. And I believe that's the only way the present law will be reversed.”
But in this society, we the people are the government. And I'm not sure what law you mean – certainly laws against back alley abortions were enforced. Maybe if you expand on what laws you're talking about, I'll have a better understanding of your point – certainly right-to-lifers weren't murdered in the days leading up to the legalization of abortion.

“The history of man for the nine months preceding his birth would, probably, be far more interesting and contain events of greater moment than for all the three score and ten years that follow it,” wrote Coleridge.
John, after dismissing Aquinas as “not the Church”, why would you be unduly influenced by a Broad-Church Anglican? (Actually, if I live long enough, I hope to get through Coleridge's Aids to Reflection some day.) Remember, I said all along that I believed a fetus became a baby at least a month before birth. 30 weeks is somewhere in the vicinity of two months before birth. But while I can influence the debate, ultimately society will decide. Actually, penultimately, society will decide. Ultimately God will decide. But while we make our own fallible decisions as well-informed as we can make them, only God knows God's judgment on this or that action before it is revealed on Judgment Day.

John Dunkle said...

This didn't work for me, Bill.

John Dunkle said...

Seems to be working now. I'll try again.

John Dunkle said...

Point #1: Aquinas did not have the scientific knowledge available to him then. You don't have that excuse.

Point #2: A real doctor may never kill an innocent person. He may remove a pathologically damaged fallopian tube and thus kill the baby growing there, but he may never directly attack the baby.

Point #3: Good response.

Point #4: For the state the potential becomes actual at the moment of birth. For Obama the potential becomes actual after that. For you the potential becomes actual around the seventh month. After that it is murder. Why aren't you trying to help those babies you realize are being murdered?

Point #5: The passage on Bonhoeffer is also good.

Point #6: I attended Catholic schools during the 40s and early 50s. Sally could "visit her aunt for a week or two" easily. Oh sure, once in a while the authorities slapped the hand of some killer, but for the most part they did nothing.

Point #6: Coleridge, like you, was right sometimes and wrong sometimes. Being not just Catholic but also catholic, I use the good stuff even if my enemy offers it.

Respond to just one of these six points. That way we can get deeper and save time. Remember, I've conceded: you've already won the debate. Now we're just trying to get to the truth.

John Dunkle said...

You know, Bill, you really shouldn't post a blog if you're talking to yourself. Blogs are for talking to others. I'm one of those folks. I say something, and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait...

Bill Bekkenhuis said...

John – I'm going to briefly address all of your points and then, hopefully (but not necessarily! :-) later today I will pursue the issue of when does personhood begin and how would we know that.

That issue is really at the heart of things, isn't it? Makes all the difference in the world whether you think you're removing a cyst, a potential person or a person. And all the rest – breast cancer, post-abortion depression, possible inability to conceive again, etc. - is so much fluff when measured against the central issue: is it infanticide?

Point #1: Aquinas did not have the scientific knowledge available to him then. You don't have that excuse.

But when a fertilized egg becomes a baby is not a scientific question, it involves questions of theology, ethics and law. Those discussions / decisions can and should be informed by science but cannot be determined by them.
That's no different then many others things – a scientific test can determine someone's blood alcohol level and science can describe the effects on motor functions and judgment that this blood alcohol level would have on a person, but it is the law that determines the definition of Driving Under the Influence.

Point #2: A real doctor may never kill an innocent person. He may remove a pathologically damaged fallopian tube and thus kill the baby growing there, but he may never directly attack the baby.

Your original response was:
“For example, characterizing us as people who say "no abortions ever, let the mother die," (para 19)is wrong. We say, let a real doctor decide, not a baby-killer.”

Based on your current response, it seems my original point stands and I have correctly characterized your position as “no abortions ever, let the mother die.”

At best, a “real doctor” can let a fetus die but cannot abort a fetus. Ever. Not even to save the life of the mother. And don't say, “that situation would never arise” because you know I will be able to document the existence of such situations :-)

Point #3: Good response.

Thank you.

Point #4: For the state the potential becomes actual at the moment of birth. For Obama the potential becomes actual after that. For you the potential becomes actual around the seventh month. After that it is murder. Why aren't you trying to help those babies you realize are being murdered?

First, I have no idea what you mean when you say Obama doesn't believe a fetus is a baby until some time has passed after its birth. (?!) Can you give me any example of something he said to that effect? Or some legislation he's signed off on or championed?

Second, I'm not exactly sure where the federal government (by law or regulation) stands on when a fetus becomes a baby. Any link you can send would be helpful.

I am pretty sure state governments have weighed in on it, though I could be mistaken. They certainly have rules restricting abortions but possibly not based on the fetus' status as a baby.

Remember, even someone like myself who believes abortion should be safe and legal and that the decision should remain with the mother can still believe it to be a great evil and that mothers sometime abort for reasons I would consider unethical (for example, using it as an after-the-fact form of birth control because a baby would be inconvenient). [continued]

Bill Bekkenhuis said...

[continued from previous]

If a baby has legal rights to “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” that society should recognize and protect, a fetus (to my way of thinking) may not possess the legal status of a baby but it certainly has the status of being a potential baby.

So terminating a pregnancy should never, in my opinion, be treated theologically, morally and legaly as we'd treat the issue of removing a tumor or an appendix.

As far as saving late term babies from abortion first, as you probably know, the Allentown Womens' Center does not perform late term abortions – so, if nothing else, it's not happening under my nose. I don't even believe it is happening in my state.

Beyond that, I do attempt to save late term babies: by promoting – online, within my church and my circle of friends and co-workers - abstinence and, if one is not willing to practice abstinence, then by promoting safe sex.

And, if contraception fails, as it does from time to time, I would counsel a morning after pill or as early an abortion as can be arranged.

And if the person decided to carry the fetus to term and give him or her up for adoption, I would do anything I could to support that decision.

I really suspect that if everyone did what I attempt to do there would be much fewer abortions in general.

I don't actually know how much it would drop the late term abortion rate because I'm all but certain that such abortions are rarely carried out to terminate an inconvenient pregnancy – most situations I've read involved life of the mother or a fetus with such severe birth defects as to not be viable outside of the womb for very long and with very little chance of any sort of quality of life.

But it is, I believe, a very different ethical situation than an early term abortion and I believe the rights of the late term fetus should be represented in the decision.

Point #5: The passage on Bonhoeffer is also good.

Thank you. Bonhoeffer actually planned to study with Gandhi but it never happened because Bonhoeffer took a German pastorate in England instead.

Point #6: I attended Catholic schools during the 40s and early 50s. Sally could "visit her aunt for a week or two" easily. Oh sure, once in a while the authorities slapped the hand of some killer, but for the most part they did nothing.

But this is surely arguing against yourself. What you're saying, in essence, is it doesn't matter if abortion is illegal as it will merely go underground with little or no consequences to anyone who is caught.

Except the women will be stigmatized and will certainly be predated upon by the incompetent in unsanitary conditions at extortionist prices.

And what moral benefit is to be gained from that?

Hell, you won't even be able to protest against them because you won't know where they are!

Point #6: Coleridge, like you, was right sometimes and wrong sometimes. Being not just Catholic but also catholic, I use the good stuff even if my enemy offers it.

I like Coleridge and am beginning to like Aquinas (not having read a whole lot of either).
Bill Bekkenhuis
Bethlehem, PA

John Dunkle said...

Dammit Bill, didn't I concede the debate. How can I remember everything you throw at me here? As I told someone earlier, maybe you, yan't dealing with a genius!

At this point I can remember one -- prolife doctors let women die. No they don't. They save her life by removing an organ that would kill her if not removed -- even if a baby is growing in that organ. Respond just to that and I'll be able to follow you.

Bill Bekkenhuis said...

...prolife doctors let women die. [My quote] No they don't. They save her life by removing an organ that would kill her if not removed -- even if a baby is growing in that organ.

I think you're making a distinction that doesn't amount to any real difference.

You are re-interpreting a particular abortion procedure as the removal of an organ - like an appendix or gall bladder or something - that just happens to have a dependent infant inside.

I think most people would consider your suggested procedure an abortion made to save the life of the mother.

Bill Bekkenhuis
Bethlehem, PA

John Dunkle said...

Most thinking people would see the difference. On the one hand you remove an organ that if not removed would kill the woman; on the other hand you kill a child. Sure, a child dies in both cases, but the difference between the two actions you take is profound.

Bill Bekkenhuis said...

"Most thinking people"?

No, John, that's the No True Scotsman fallacy.

"Most thinking people" would see the difference because YOU see the difference... and if they don't see the difference, that just shows they're not thinking :-)

"No Scotsman would do that!"

[You give undeniable proof that a Scotsman did EXACTLY that.]

"Well," the Scot replies indignantly, "No TRUE Scotsman would do that!"

Bill Bekkenhuis
Bethlehem, PA

John Dunkle said...

You see someone you don't like. You whip out you gun and kill him. Next day you see someone else you don't like. He is about to kill a girl. You whip out your gun again and kill him too. No difference?

Bill Bekkenhuis said...

Actually, as motive is taken into account when one is charged with murder, there might not be as much of a difference as you suppose - if a clever prosecutor could somehow establish that the killing of man #2 had nothing to do with the girl's situation and everything to do with the fact that I hated the man and wanted him dead.

Be that as it may, this is becoming quibbling over words... you want to say someone can indirectly kill a fetus by removing the womb (such that it's wrong to characterize your position as 'no abortion even to save the life of the mother') only you then balk at calling it an abortion.

Fine, you're willing to let a doctor cause the death of a baby to save the life of the mother just please don't call it abortion.

Got it :-)

John Dunkle said...

Right, that's not an abortion.

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